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Andrew Warner: Hey there, freedom Fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy, where I interview entrepreneurs about how they built their businesses.

I have a big curiosity, which is [00:00:09] the beauty of doing these interviews. I’m seeing these freaking AI agencies pop up and they call themselves AI agencies, and to me it feels like that’s not specific enough. [00:00:18] But who am I to tell them that what they’re doing is wrong? Because frankly, when I call them up, I see that a lot of them are actually getting good business and they’re doing it from lots of different industries.

And to me, that [00:00:27] is confusing. How are they doing well like that? How do they call someone up and say, I’m an AI agency. And somebody goes, yes, finally someone’s gonna AI me. I, I just don’t see that as, as, [00:00:36] as a model that works. And so I said, who can I talk to to help me understand it? And I realized it’s gotta be Rob Howard and he’s gotta be so fed up with me, but he’s got a smile on his face [00:00:45] because he doesn’t know me from Adam.

I texted him because when I get curious, I’m like on text with a stranger and then I persuaded him to come do an interview with me. And he [00:00:54] goes, okay, all right, let’s do it. And I wanted it for two reasons because he’s somebody who has done this. He has clients who he has built software for, for years. [00:01:03] So he is not a newcomer who just decided, Hey, you know what?

I found out what N eight N is and I’m great with it, and I’m gonna go, no, he’s done this for, for literally decades. But more importantly, or just as [00:01:12] importantly, he has these students who he’s been working with and teaching them how to create AI agencies. And so I figured we’re gonna take, uh, like a 360 degree understanding of this whole space.[00:01:21]

But first I should say Rob Howard’s company is called Howard Development and Consulting. It’s called h dc.net. And then his, uh, place where you, [00:01:30] where you learn is innovating , with ai. Why don’t we start out with this, instead of me saying hi and everything, I wanna know about the example that you gave me about doctors who are signing up [00:01:39] for a high tier consulting service to do what?

Rob Howard: Yeah, great question. Well, thanks for having me first of all, and uh, thanks for being [00:01:48] so persuasive when you

cold texted me this morning to hang out today. So glad to be here. Um, yeah, so when we were first starting [00:01:57] innovating with ai, which really was a branch of the business early on, thinking about like, how can we, we are already doing some teaching, right?

Teaching people how [00:02:06] to code, teaching people WordPress stuff, just through day to day life and just enjoying that, knowing that’s a

Andrew Warner: You, you had a blog that was teaching people how to, you, you had a blog that [00:02:15] was teaching people how to, how to build websites. Just to give

Rob Howard: We were doing webinars, you know, just for fun for fun and, you know, it’s a business model, but like, it was always like we were [00:02:24] dabbling in it, right?

Um, so AI comes along, obviously disrupts everything in late 2022. Um, and we said, okay, well obviously this is getting more [00:02:33] traction. Let’s experiment with some more stuff.

And we put together some, uh, programs and courses. And the highest ticket version of those was the [00:02:42] opportunity to sit down with me and really do a personalized consulting project. And that was a mix of learning as well as software work, right? [00:02:51] Uh, so what we discovered at very accidentally was a ton of doctors, physicians, psychologists, people in like the medical space and [00:03:00] adjacent were signing up for this. $10,000 plus plan with us, like sight unseen, no sales call, not talking to me on the phone. Nothing Like [00:03:09] what we were seeing for the sales process for our traditional software development projects where it’s much longer and there’s competitive proposals. So we were like, [00:03:18] obviously this is a thing and this pattern is meaningful.

Right. Um, and what we ended up building for

many,

Andrew Warner: they asking you for?

Rob Howard: [00:03:27] uh, so the pattern was that we were seeing a level of enthusiasm for purchasing a five figure software project that was very [00:03:36] unlike what you see. For example, if you go out and you try to get somebody to pay you to design their website, right. We were seeing, basically, people were like, I don’t [00:03:45] even wanna read the whole thing I’m in.

Like, show me how to do this. I know I need help with this. I

Andrew Warner: What’s the thing? Was there a consistent thing that they were asking you for?

Rob Howard: [00:03:54] Typically it landed in what we call a document automation project. So a typical physician will, you know, work with a patient, maybe they have medical [00:04:03] records and notes and all these things that need, they need

to compile into a useful report for the patient or other, you know, providers or family members at the end of that.

And they were [00:04:12] saying, I am spending 12 hours on this document and I think AI can make

that work for me in two hours. Right? [00:04:21] So, you know, somebody who has a limited amount of time, they’re essentially a solopreneur or small business owner as a private practice doctor. Uh, um, they’ve [00:04:30] got some money to invest in speed and automation and they value their time a lot. They were very early adopters, even though they weren’t techie in purchasing what [00:04:39] we now call AI consulting services. So that became a mix of figure out what to build, which of course we love to do, making MVPs and all that stuff from [00:04:48] the, the software days and then sitting down and doing it. With a mixture of code and low code tools. Um, and that was what really evolved into [00:04:57] our first few large AI consulting projects. And now we’ve created a much more detailed sort of [00:05:06] menu or matrix of service offerings that we do ourselves as well as teach. Um, and it makes that a very robust business for folks [00:05:15] who are enthusiastic about AI and also want to help other people adopt ai.

Andrew Warner: I see. And so that actually is pretty interesting to [00:05:24] me that people have an understanding that AI could magically solve their, their big problem. And so they just come to an AI agency, [00:05:33] or in your case, an AI teacher, and they say, I want to pay you to solve it. And that’s unlike say, online marketing, where someone might have a problem and then just go [00:05:42] randomly talk to an online marketing company.

They know at this point, I have an SEO problem, I want more search traffic, or I have a content problem. I want someone to [00:05:51] improve my, my, maybe even more specific than that social content, you know? So in the calls that I’ve had this week, that’s one of the things that stood out that this area is not mature enough [00:06:00] to go specialized.

And people are still not smart enough or not aware enough of. the specialists should be. They just know there’s [00:06:09] some AI solution. And is that why a lot of AI agencies, speaking of someone who’s helped create a lot of these, is that why a lot of AI agencies are not focused on doctors or [00:06:18] focused on marketing automation?

Rob Howard: Yeah, so, you know, we have

about, we have more than a thousand people in our AI consultancy program who are [00:06:27] building their own AI consulting firms at various levels of, um, you know, points in their journey. Some have been doing it with us for a year and a [00:06:36] half. Some are newer, right? We actually do recommend that they niche down eventually, because we believe that just like any consulting [00:06:45] firm or any agency, being able to say, I have a industry niche and a geographic niche is gonna be a useful, um, you know, value proposition [00:06:54] to get the client’s attention, to make lead generation easier. However, we often discover that a new consultant will go in [00:07:03] to a business who is super enthusiastic about the idea of getting help with ai, but that client, as you suggested, really has no idea what that even [00:07:12] means, right? So one of the things that we teach is like, what does this journey or roadmap for your client look like?

What are the easy entry points? What are the premium offerings and how [00:07:21] do you. Figure out where they’re starting and help them through that journey. Because, you know, as you suggested, it is very much, um, you know, the [00:07:30] wild west in the sense that nobody really has a good handle at like mid-size and large companies on exactly how to tackle [00:07:39] this.

Especially when you get away from companies that have like an engineering department, right? Which is, you know, I don’t know, 80 or 90% of the world where they’re not thinking about [00:07:48] software all day, but they know how much software can help them, right? So we’re seeing people going in and saying, Hey, maybe we just start with a training, right?

And maybe that training moves [00:07:57] into strategy and that moves into an end eight end implementation or, you know, something more complex. Um, and that has been a winning [00:08:06] roadmap that we’ve been able to put, you know, into, you know, real templates and real systems for folks in our programs.

Andrew Warner: It’s funny because I’m actually texting right [00:08:15] now with Jesse Fuge. I said, Jesse, you contacted Rob. What was it about? And he’s got a company called Growth Assistant and he is thinking, maybe I wanna level up my, not, [00:08:24] maybe he’s been talking actively about how he wants to level up his people with ai.

And so when, so he wants to, he talked to you, I guess by email [00:08:33] about having you train their people. And that’s another entry point for, for agencies. Is it just, I’ll come in and I’ll teach your people how to use ai.[00:08:42]

Rob Howard: absolutely. And one of the things we see over and over again is the folks in our program and in our community who are really [00:08:51] into this stuff and are reading the newsletters every day and are reading, you know, what, what happened with open AI yesterday? And what happened with philanthropic the day before? They don’t believe. [00:09:00] How many people are complete novices and are like, give me the 1 0 1 or 1 0 2 training. In fact, we had a student go to a [00:09:09] pretty significant tech conference the other, uh, about two weeks ago, and he came back and he said, I can’t believe how many people had no idea [00:09:18] what anything was outside of like Chacha T.

Right. Or maybe they’d used chat g bt a few times. And what we’re seeing is that in some ways [00:09:27] there’s a little bit of a disparity between the perception from what I would call inside the tech community and the reality outside the tech community, [00:09:36] which is that like, we’re super into this. We’re talking about it all the time.

Every day we are following the news, but most people are hearing about it as sort of [00:09:45] like a cool thing in the background, but they’re not really hands on with it yet. So that’s why you can still go in and do a great training and people are like, we are [00:09:54] so happy to pay you for this because we need a guide.

We need a trusted advisor. Right? And we try to build. Businesses that allow the, you know, [00:10:03] proprietors, whether it’s a solopreneur or a small consultancy firm, uh, to become trusted advisors to a set of clients who are gonna be [00:10:12] with them for the long term. Start with the easy stuff. Maybe it’s a training, maybe it’s, uh, oriented towards their industry, but there’s also some general learning that [00:10:21] the, you know, company or its team needs to do.

And then, you know, build a multi-year roadmap where they might be your client through many projects over a [00:10:30] long period of time, and you create that long time lifelong relationship with them.

Andrew Warner: But you know, if someone were to bring me in to do AI training, I wouldn’t even know where to start. Am I teaching you that you [00:10:39] can actually upload a bunch of, uh, documents into chat GPT and create your own chat experience so that knows all your past writing? Or am I [00:10:48] explaining to them that they could use N eight n?

Am I doing something more complicated than that? Where do I even begin? And it’s so broad that it’s scary. It’s [00:10:57] scary to, to go into a client not knowing what am I giving them. How do you, how do you limit yourself when you’re saying I’ll come and do training?

Rob Howard: Great [00:11:06] question. So there’s a number of ways to, um, hone it down. One is just with time, right? Like if we know that we have two hours, obviously that’s gonna limit us [00:11:15] versus if it’s gonna be a multi-day bootcamp. And we have consulting students who do both of those things. Um, we like to start students off when they’re [00:11:24] giving their first trainings with like an hour presentation that is effectively AI 1 0 1. What is this thing? What is a language model? [00:11:33] Why is it able to sort of predict and be smart about what to say

next, right? Why is it, why is it creating these images? That’s usually pretty interesting to [00:11:42] 80% of people. Sometimes you’ll get a client who request something more advanced, and then we have, um, a series of sort of idea [00:11:51] generators within our community that we have people use to say, okay, I’m gonna go into this real estate firm.

What demos should I show them? And then you build them, you [00:12:00] know, a demo you can show for 10 minutes and maybe it’s creating a listing for a new house or analyzing a piece of data or something, and they’re [00:12:09] like, whoa, like now I’m seeing like where this thing actually can

speed up my life. So you can do things that are industry specific [00:12:18] and also generalized and you can sort of mix and mash those and the students who. Have kind of taken that to another level. We’ll even [00:12:27] survey the audience before. So if they say, okay, I know I’m going into this company, um, we’re gonna sit down with, you know, the CFO and then the [00:12:36] team underneath that person and we’re gonna do a training. I know it’s gonna be kind of oriented towards this, but let’s just ask them what they wanna learn.

Right. And then, you know, we have tons of [00:12:45] educational resources that we use to teach our students that they can also in turn use to teach others. And when you have a [00:12:54] bunch of those things, you can now remix that almost infinitely to make that interesting enough, but also repetitive enough that you keep [00:13:03] the attention of your current client, but you also gain the efficiency of being able to like, get good at giving the same handful of [00:13:12] trainings over

and over again. Which of course is a big part of running an efficient, uh, agency. Being able to

have some repetition there.

Andrew Warner: let’s talk about [00:13:21] the real estate example. What would they build those two examples in? The

Rob Howard: Great question. So

Andrew Warner: yeah. And the listing. Mm-hmm.

Rob Howard: yeah, great question. [00:13:30] We have, um, basically a set of what we call nine personas in the program. So when you start our program, we ask you where are you right [00:13:39] now on your tech skills and where are you on your business skills? And then based on that we’re gonna recommend a stack for you.

So it could be a simple as Zapier, right, [00:13:48] or Airtable, which are gonna be on the easier side, but allow you to do quite a bit of automation and AI work. Um, and then you just maybe plug that [00:13:57] into GPT five or whatever the current model is, right? And then on the more advanced side, you move into something like Make or N eight N or even [00:14:06] custom coating if you’re an engineer. And then those allow you to create bigger and more complex things. But what’s. Impressive and kind of [00:14:15] again, surprising to somebody who’s in the tech world is you can give so much value to clients by building them no code solutions. [00:14:24] And what that allows you to do is take your enthusiasm, not need to go learn how to code or even learn how to like deploy N eight N to a server or something [00:14:33] and almost immediately start helping people, which of course creates those relationships and creates money for your consultancy and creates a [00:14:42] business for you.

Andrew Warner: I saw that Growth Assistant had, they brought me into a conversation with an [00:14:51] agency that they were looking to hire, and one of the things that they said to them was, can you turn some of our internal documents into content that we can post online? [00:15:00] And they saw that agency’s work was being done on eight NNA.

Wait, N eight N,

Rob Howard: Letter number letter. [00:15:09] there’s a million. There’s, there’s actually a controversy over how to say it, but we, we just say N eight n to

simplify it.

Andrew Warner: Um, and so at the end of the call I go, [00:15:18] I’m I Slack, Adam, the CTO. I said, Adam, you’ve been using this tool forever. Why are you hiring these guys for $5,000 to do it instead of doing it yourself? Or [00:15:27] like, why doesn’t someone else at the company do do it? And he goes, Andrew, you saw me use it. Are you gonna use it now because you show you saw me use it?

I obviously I’m not. And he [00:15:36] goes, do you think I have the patience to keep going back and iterating with this team because they have these changes? It’s not enough to use it. I’d rather just pay them $5,000 and be done with this. [00:15:45] And I’m guessing that’s where a lot of it comes in. The other thing though that comes up to me is that essentially a lot of people who are creating AI agents or [00:15:54] AI tools are just using these two, these two tools, right?

N eight N, yeah. N eight N and uh, and Zapier [00:16:03] essentially, right? Sometimes they’ll use Make, and to me it feels almost a little bit like cheating. What are you really creating here?

Rob Howard: Well, I think what you’ve discovered [00:16:12] is the central tension between what I would describe as the old tech economy and the new tech economy, [00:16:21] because until 2023 being really good at coding, whether that was JavaScript, Python, PHP, or anything else. [00:16:30] Meant you had essentially 10 x or more the earning potential and the ability to build [00:16:39] quality solutions than everybody else in the world.

And that has been the fundamental change that has turned [00:16:48] everything on its head. And I say this as somebody who’s been coding since 1999 or before when I was, you know, a teenager, right? Um, I was able to [00:16:57] walk into pretty much any room, say I’m a coder, boom. Like you are 10 x more valuable than the next person who’s not a coder.

Right? And that is rapidly [00:17:06] changing. And I think that what you just described is the disruption that is happening. And it’s almost hard to believe that somebody [00:17:15] can use what are, from our perspective, relatively simple tools and software, not even to think about vibe coding, which is [00:17:24] also relatively simple compared to the past.

Right. Um, and provide. Meaningful, valuable solutions. But what we’re seeing is that, you know, [00:17:33] these tools, these tools existed, right? Zapier existed for many years. I would describe it as basically like a boring tech tool before 2022. [00:17:42] When AI comes into the mix though now and automation gets so much more valuable, right?

Because your automation can be, uh, infinitely smarter [00:17:51] than anything you could do previously with, you know, scripts and stuff like that. So that has dramatically increased the value of Zapier [00:18:00] dramatically increased the value of make, which also existed pre ai. Um, NAN obviously is newer to the scene and is now a really sort of [00:18:09] becoming a famous tool in the low-code, no-code world. The reason these are so valuable is because they allow you to build with AI without learning how [00:18:18] to code, which changes the entire dynamic of everything, right? So if you want to be a coder and you want to continue to. Um, you [00:18:27] know, B 10 x the value of everybody around you. Uh, it’s kind of a hard sell now because so many people are able to catch up with you and build [00:18:36] these solutions, um, which is a challenge, right?

And obviously we see tension within the web development world, within the software development world, even within [00:18:45] the design world as a result of that. But you have, you are, you articulated that problem, right? However, the fact that it’s hard to believe does not mean that it is not [00:18:54] actually happening. And what we’re seeing on the ground is that that change is real.

And, uh, more and more people are able to basically combine kind of [00:19:03] business skills with medium level tech skills, right? If you’re looking at it from a pre AI standpoint and provide real solutions to [00:19:12] clients, just like the ones that, you know, we mentioned from training to building automations, to building workflows and kind of all that stuff.

Andrew Warner: Gimme another example that either [00:19:21] you or your, your students have built. What else

Rob Howard: Yeah, we, uh, did a big series of lessons recently that, you know, essentially [00:19:30] is intended to be a, uh, template and a demo that students can then take and use for their clients. And we call it a dashboard for [00:19:39] team operations. And the use case that we showed is actually very similar to what you just described the agency having built for your, um, for your friend. Uh, [00:19:48] and it was basically, we are a museum. We have a bunch of cool stuff in our museum and we know a lot about it, but like, we need to get that [00:19:57] knowledge out of our heads into a system. And then we want to generate a social media post every day and make sure that we have really interesting [00:20:06] content that we’re pumping out on a regular basis.

So very similar to the idea. So we built that. We actually, what we do is we build three levels. We build the easy [00:20:15] version, the medium version, and the hard version, and we show the students that progression so then they can pick and choose where they want to be in terms of

their stack. So it can be [00:20:24] anything from Airtable

all the way up to a more complex N eight N or make build that’s gonna be, uh, you know, talking to different APIs [00:20:33] and doing more complex stuff behind the scenes.

In this case, you could bring in like a buffer or a Hootsuite, for example, to, uh, you know, do the social media posting. So you can kind [00:20:42] of sprinkle in as much complexity as you want. But the fundamental value is, you know, we’ve got a bunch of non-techies at the museum. [00:20:51] They do not want to learn all this stuff.

They don’t even have time. Right.

A couple of them are. You know, PhDs who are old fashioned and they know all their stuff about history, but [00:21:00] they don’t really want to, you know, learn about how to get that stuff into social media. Some of them are interns, right, who just aren’t ready to dive in [00:21:09] too deep to this stuff, but can do the sort of legwork. Um, and we create a series of sort of data, um, [00:21:18] storage, uh, sort of setups and then automations that allow them to put their knowledge in one place and then remix it over and over again in essentially infinite [00:21:27] ways, which, uh, is something that AI can do really, really well, especially when guided well. Um, and there’s still a human in the loop, but it [00:21:36] dramatically improves their ability to get more good content out there.

Andrew Warner: You know what, I guess it kind of reminds me of how [00:21:45] when WordPress came out, I thought, why would I hire anyone to create a WordPress site? And I hired someone to create a nice

Rob Howard: Right? Yeah.

Andrew Warner: Then, uh, Squarespace came out and I said, if you use Squarespace, [00:21:54] it basically is just pay, pay them a lot of money a month, get a a little bit more rigidity, but in return you can do it yourself.

[00:22:03] And even smart people. My wife is, is a top executive tech firm. She didn’t wanna go into Squarespace and do it herself and use a template. She paid an agency a few [00:22:12] thousand dollars. She said, this is what I want. Go create it for me. And essentially you’re saying the same thing here. It’s. Yes, they could learn how to use these two, these tools that we’ve talked about, [00:22:21] but they don’t want to, and the result is not a small impact on their business.

It’s a wow impact that looks fun today and actually has big [00:22:30] financial impact on their business. What are there, what are the software are you using? We’re talking about N eight eight and eight n years from now. I’m gonna laugh at how I mispronounce this over and [00:22:39] over

Rob Howard: impossible. Uh, you know, it’s one of those companies that, like, they obviously were not thinking about the naming being the name being said over and over again when they, they named it. And

[00:22:48] I think that’s, ’cause, you know, it comes out of a open source coding project or something along those lines.

And, uh, you know, it certainly did not get the, the brand,

um, [00:22:57] makeover early

Andrew Warner: side, side note, by the way, I have, uh, I’ve been WhatsApping, I’ve been WhatsApping the founder to get him to do an interview with me. I don’t know if he [00:23:06] appreciates my WhatsApp attitude here, but, um, I do wanna find out about what’s going on with him. Um, oh my camera just a weird thing here. It’s okay. [00:23:15] Um, so yeah, what other tools are you using?

Rob Howard: So, uh, basically what we do is we, um, show you sort of a tier [00:23:24] list of tools that we recommend, right? So, you know, if you want to go super easy, just use Zapier, right? There’s limitations to it. And if you hit those limitations you wanna [00:23:33] move up to make, and then if you hit limitations there, you might wanna move to N eight N.

But if you think Make is much more beautiful than than N eight N, which most people do, then maybe you wanna [00:23:42] stick with make, and maybe there’s, you know, a balance, right? Uh, super base is great. Um, we do a lot of stuff with, um, showing people how to use different [00:23:51] vector store methods. Um, you know, there’s chat g Bt, uh, or I guess I would say the Open AI playground and the Open AI [00:24:00] assistance, uh, ecosystem has vector stores within it, but you can also do stuff with third parties like Pine Cone, N eight N even has little bits of vector [00:24:09] storage available within it.

So we kind of help you figure out. Where you are in that stack. Um, and the other thing is like honestly, Google Sheets [00:24:18] can do a lot of this stuff, right? Like if you think about what is Airtable? Airtable is a nicer version of Google Sheets. Superb base is a nicer version of [00:24:27] Airtable. A custom database is a more complex and more flexible version of all of those things, right?

So we kinda show you that hierarchy [00:24:36] and allow you to pick and choose. Clients sometimes will say, I have to be in the Microsoft ecosystem, so we’ll use copilot and we’ll use power automate in those [00:24:45] situations. So we kinda have like a little bit of a choose your own adventure or decision tree available to our consulting students to help them with that. [00:24:54] Um, but I think the biggest factor is really. How techy do you want to get? And you know, as we talked about, the threshold is not the same as [00:25:03] it was five years ago for being able to build stuff that works for clients. Um, and I think that’s why you’re seeing, um, you know, so much [00:25:12] interest and opportunity in this space because there’s a bunch of people who don’t have the time, energy, or inclination to do this for themselves. And those people [00:25:21] simultaneously see how valuable it could be for them, which is where the transaction of, you know, five or $10,000, it just makes perfect [00:25:30] sense, right? Why would I go do this learning curve to figure this out when I can pay $5,000 and get $25,000 worth of value out of it? Pretty much instantly.

And [00:25:39] that’s something that we see clients saying during proposal processes. And the consultants are always blown away. ’cause they, they ask the same question, why [00:25:48] can’t this person just do, if I can do this, anybody can do this, right? Like, that’s kind of their.

Initial thought.

Um, and while that may [00:25:57] be technically or theoretically true, it doesn’t factor in the limitation of having 24 hours in the day having opportunity [00:26:06] cost in putting your, you know, uh, time as an owner or a CEO into learning these tools as opposed to hiring somebody. [00:26:15] So, um, there is op opportunity there because there is a, uh, significant, uh, space where the [00:26:24] learning curve and opportunity costs make it worth it for other people to pay you as an AI

enthusiast to learn this and do it over and over again.[00:26:33]

Andrew Warner: I’m wondering how you teach them to get clients. We, through Bootstrap Giants, we’ve helped agencies and I, I don’t think we have any agency that will build [00:26:42] on tools that you just mentioned. I don’t, I don’t think we have even one. But even though they’re selling higher end AI services at times or higher end [00:26:51] services, the simple way to get the first clients is to.

Look for people within their network who fit their ICP have a discussion about this [00:27:00] new business idea they have. Usually it’s an existing business, but still get some feedback on it. Often that turns into customers. If it doesn’t, you can come back a month later and say, this thing that you gave me feedback on, [00:27:09] I’ve now improved based on what you’ve said.

I think it might be a good fit for your company. Can I pitch you? And then once they exhaust their direct connections, they go to second degree and they ask for introductions and they have a [00:27:18] similar type of conversation. That is a, that’s, that’s a model that existed for years. What is it that you’re doing in this space that opens [00:27:27] doors and starts conversations.

Rob Howard: I think that the model of meeting people and building trust and what I call go out and make friends when [00:27:36] I explain it to people, uh, basically still works, right? I don’t think that AI changes that dramatically. And I would also add that [00:27:45] to some degree the existence of what I would describe as like AI auto spammers for lead generation actually makes. [00:27:54] Building a human connection in an authentic way, even more valuable and actually more of a differentiator for you. And what we will do is we will actually, [00:28:03] uh, you know, start folks out, as you mentioned with the warm network, right? Have them pitch something that is pretty much like an easy yes for a lot of [00:28:12] people.

Like, Hey, can we do a training? It’ll be discounted, you know, it’ll be

Andrew Warner: But for who are they are? Are they starting to niche down right from the beginning and saying, look, I have a lot of friends who are [00:28:21] in real estate. I’m gonna just tap the real estate people and that’s my first group. And I’ll do training for them. And then once I do training for them, they’ll see some opportunities and then they’ll [00:28:30] hire me to do more.

Is that the approach?

Rob Howard: It can be. We also like to allow them to be broad early on, because that makes it a little bit [00:28:39] easier to go out and kind of get the jitters out of doing your first few pitches, right? Um, but we do like to have them niche down when they start to do [00:28:48] direct outreach because it helps. Present your, it helps to present yourself as somebody who is specialized in at least a couple of industries, right?

Rather

than just [00:28:57] saying, Hey, I’m the every man for ai. You might say, Hey, I’m the, you know, Florida real estate AI person, right? In, you know, a slightly [00:29:06] more, uh, uh, verbose way, of course. But that’s basically the, the idea.

Andrew Warner: they first start off by going after a broad collection of their direct [00:29:15] relationships, who they think they could help, and then they start to narrow when they go beyond their direct relationships.

Rob Howard: For most students, that works well because it allows you to get [00:29:24] some testimonials, some experience with the closer relationships. But then of course, word of mouth only gets you so far, right? So you need [00:29:33] some sort of outreach system to help yourself not only get focused and niche down a little bit, but also bring in the volume that [00:29:42] is required for you to have. 10 or 20, you know, big clients per year, which is what, you know, eventually becomes that, you know, [00:29:51] six figure or multi six figure solo or small consulting business.

Andrew Warner: What are some of the projects that they get started with that light [00:30:00] people up as clients, and then what’s the ongoing relationship there?

Rob Howard: Yeah, great question. So I’ll answer the ongoing relationship part first because that’s something we [00:30:09] really focus on is, um, you know, we want clients to be clients for life. And one of the things that I’ll teach students is [00:30:18] if this person’s gonna pay you once, like it almost isn’t even worth taking the money from them because you want to go out and find people who are gonna be doing four or five [00:30:27] or 10 projects with you over the course of, uh, you know, that multi-year experience with that client. Um, and [00:30:36] there is a, uh, uh, consulting. Guru from back in the day, who’s a generation or two older than me, uh, who says, uh, think of the fourth sale [00:30:45] first. Right? And that’s something that we really try to teach and internalize within the

program when we’re helping students, you know, start to hone down. Like, who are [00:30:54] my ideal clients?

Who are the people who are gonna make that, you know, build that long-term relationship with me? So the ideal is, you know, [00:31:03] we work our way up the ladder. We eventually get into retainer or, you know, sort of fractional, um, services that we would provide [00:31:12] to a subset of those clients who sort of go all the way with us.

Um, and then a lot of students are surprised at [00:31:21] how fun and profitable it is to start out with trainings. A lot of students will start out with things like doing an audit. Or doing a governance [00:31:30] policy project for a client. All those things that I just mentioned don’t require you to touch code or automate our tools at all, really, but bring you a [00:31:39] lot of opportunity and bring the client a lot of value because again, you’re doing all this legwork for them, right?

Even if you’re sitting down and you’re doing focus groups for with their [00:31:48] staff, like that’s something that now their team doesn’t have to worry about and doesn’t have to do. Right? So we’re seeing clients across the spectrum from, you know, [00:31:57] a five person company all the way up to Fortune 500 companies, bring our students in for trainings, bring our students in for strategy, and [00:32:06] then eventually have them do builds or have them partner up with an internal IT or engineering team to strategize about [00:32:15] what they’re gonna build. And, you know, I mean it’s in some ways, um, you know, as, as you kind of alluded to, like, it’s [00:32:24] hard to believe. How much demand there is and how much demand there is at the early stages of this. Right. Um, and I know you’ve kind of [00:32:33] expressed a little bit of that disbelief a couple times, but like, it’s crazy and it’s real at the same time. And I think it, you know, just speaks to how much of a [00:32:42] disruption AI is and also how early we are in the adoption cycle right now, even though we’ve been immersed in it for three years now. Um, the world at [00:32:51] large is very much still in early adopter mode.

Andrew Warner: Know, one of the agencies that worked with us, um, happens to do [00:33:00] ai. I contacted the, the, the owner and I said, tell me about this space. What are you doing? Because he, he learned our technique for [00:33:09] getting customers and, and he says, Andrew, this, what we do is we do exactly the kind of training that you just talked about.

And then he, I said, [00:33:18] then what? You’re teaching amateurs then what are you closing sales on? Isn’t this like a high-end company that you’ve got? This is a company called Stealth x.co. [00:33:27] He’s closing, I think $80,000 deals, engagements after one of these types of how-to things. It is shocking that that’s the way things start now.[00:33:36]

Rob Howard: Well, I mean, if you think about it, what people are looking for is a trusted advisor, and by providing that training, you’re up on a [00:33:45] stage or you’re giving a presentation. It is about something that effectively is magic, right? Like if you had, if you had transported to today [00:33:54] from three years ago, you’d be like, what is going on?

Like there are magical things happening inside my computer. My vacuum can see the world and move [00:34:03] around. You know, the cars are driving themselves like it’s crazy, like we’re accustomed to it now. But a lot has happened in the last three years and I think that [00:34:12] that’s a big reason that, you know, those trainings are so exciting for the lay person, uh, and that they’re leading to these larger contracts relatively quickly [00:34:21] because a lot is changing and things are getting better and faster and cheaper all at the same time.

And that is just a very unique, uh, moment in time for

Andrew Warner: [00:34:30] Here’s an example that I’ve seen. I talked to the founder of Cleverly yesterday. They do LinkedIn. You know, I, I never met him before. [00:34:39] They do LinkedIn content and upgrade of your profile and all that. I said, how are you using ai? He goes, every time we sign on a new client, we have to upgrade their [00:34:48] profile.

You know, there’s little things like the about needs to be better. There’s a better photo, better this, a better that. He goes, we now have these agents that will do it all. We ask [00:34:57] people questions on a form, and then they, we go in and do it all. He says, the one thing we can’t get done is we can’t get, you know, that top image on LinkedIn.

He says, we’re still at a place where a human being [00:35:06] needs to do that. So we have templates. A human being does that, but the rest is done with ai. That to me, feels like magic because you’re interacting with LinkedIn and you’re creating custom [00:35:15] information. What other stuff like that do you have that your client, that your students have been doing that feels like magic and also has ongoing support or ongoing buildup?[00:35:24]

Rob Howard: yeah. Great question. One of the really fun things that students are building are ways to go from [00:35:33] voice notes into a finalized document. So for example, imagine that you are a plumber or a home repair

services [00:35:42] provider. You’re going from site to site all day. You’re busy, you’re not a computer person. You don’t want to, like, a lot of these, uh, small co contractors will say. [00:35:51] I just give a pile of my notes to my wife at the end of the day and she types it up and we hope that it is all accurate and it gets sent out to the client. Right? So, [00:36:00] you know, they’re trying to be lean. They’re not techie. They don’t want to become techie. What they can do now is talk into a recording and [00:36:09] send that up to an automation and it becomes a beautiful proposal in what appears like no work, right?

Of course, there’s a lot of AI planning and a lot of structure that [00:36:18] goes into that, but as a consultant you can say, imagine if you magically never had to write an estimate again, or imagine if you magically [00:36:27] never needed to do this 14 step tedious process, right? Nobody likes the tedious processes, but they were just, they were the best we could do until very [00:36:36] recently, right? Um, and in fact, I went through that exact LinkedIn process with.

The company you mentioned before ai. Yep. And I remember, I’m like, [00:36:45] we’re in a Google Doc. Like it took like a week, you know, and it’s like, I’m sure that’s pretty much instantaneous now, which is awesome. But yeah, you know, people sometimes will, [00:36:54] I mean, people often will complain and criticize about AI writing, but I think what those criticisms miss is that a lot of the writing that needs to get [00:37:03] done for businesses to move forward is boring.

And it doesn’t really matter if it’s like poetry or not. Like it just has to be [00:37:12] correct and complete. And there, right. AI is great at that kind of stuff. It doesn’t

need to be a beautiful journalistic article or a [00:37:21] beautiful novel. Right. And when you see people who are great writers, they’re like, well, this writing sucks.

Well, yeah, but most writing sucks. And this is actually a lot better and faster [00:37:30] and cheaper than the previous crappy writing. And even if it’s not perfect, like it’s such a huge improvement. Right. And it improves everybody’s, everybody’s life who’s producing. [00:37:39] Documents and producing that type of content on a regular basis.

And that is a big

part of the engine that makes businesses run. You gotta [00:37:48] put proposals together, you have to write reports and to speed all that up simultaneously makes people’s lives better because everybody hates [00:37:57] doing that work. It frees up employee time to do more productive stuff. It often will reduce costs.

It allows you to turn those estimates around faster and get [00:38:06] more clients faster. So, you know, when somebody sees that as an outsider looking in, that’s where they’re like, oh my God, this is magic. Right? Like, I can’t believe this is [00:38:15] happening. And I think that’s

Andrew Warner: Gimme another example.

Rob Howard: yeah, let me, uh, let me think about our stack.

I mean, chatbots are a good [00:38:24] example. They are, uh, I’m gonna try to formulate it in a way that’s, you know, kind of like fun and magical and useful, but [00:38:33] you know, the chatbot on the front end. You can, customer facing can definitely be annoying, right? Where we find that chatbots [00:38:42] and rag, which is essentially taking documents and putting them into a, uh, vector database so AI can read them, right?

AI that can read your documents in a [00:38:51] custom way is rag. Uh, when you think about a chatbot and rag, the value there is giving it to your internal team, right at the [00:39:00] company and saying, listen, you need to vet this stuff before it goes out to a customer. But guess what? You don’t have to answer 98% of questions by [00:39:09] typing anymore, right?

The questions get answered and then you tweak it, you improve upon it, and then it can go out to the customer much faster to somebody who’s sitting [00:39:18] there doing customer support or. Intake or scheduling all day, that, again, is taking all the tedium outta their work, [00:39:27] allowing them to focus on being the personal face for that client or customer, but like not doing kind of like the carpal tunnel [00:39:36] inducing work of typing out the same answers all day.

So I think

Andrew Warner: when, when, you do that, sorry, what do you plug into? Are you plugging into Zendesk for them? [00:39:45] Are you plugging

into something internal?

Rob Howard: if they’re using a tool like Zendesk or you know, one of the many sort of desk [00:39:54] competitors to that, you can often plug directly into that via API. Uh, oftentimes we will just teach people at the company how [00:40:03] to have two tabs open and be doing it side

by side and it’s still really valuable,

Andrew Warner: copy the message in, paste it in there, and we’ll give you a thing that [00:40:12] automatically gets copied to your, to, to

Rob Howard: Yeah. And uh, you know, like you don’t even need it to be a super fancy automation because the amount of time

[00:40:21] that’s being saved, even with the final copy step and you want the human in the loop anyway to do that review, you’re still saving such a huge amount of [00:40:30] time that it’s worth it for people.

And a lot of times what we’ll discover is that the data organization actually is a prerequisite. And clients will come in and they’ll [00:40:39] be like, I want this, but you guys need to even help me just organize my data

first. And that’s not even an AI project, it’s just a getting your stuff together, project. Um, [00:40:48] which again, can be really valuable as a prerequisite to the AI stuff.

Andrew Warner: All right. What about this? So Gateway X has been now looking to acquire companies. [00:40:57] They said, Andrew, do you wanna sit in on this AI company? ’cause you’re trying to figure this out? I go, sure. I sit in. The guy shows, I won’t, I won’t say what it is, but it shows a [00:41:06] tool and then Jesse says, but what happens if Google just takes this on and does it themselves?

And as he was starting to answer, I should have let [00:41:15] him answer. I’m curious what his answer would’ve been. I interrupted unfortunately, and I said, you know, they do have it. I have this beta access. Google’s doing the same thing your company does. [00:41:24] And he goes, oh, I didn’t see, can you show me? I share my screen and I show him.

And it’s just painful

because he’s selling the company and that’s [00:41:33] going on. And so I wonder how much of this stuff is just temporary? Because if your people can create this rag setup that will allow them, their [00:41:42] clients to answer customer service. And then so can Zendesk and 20 other companies.

Rob Howard: It’s a great question. And I remember, you know, even, you [00:41:51] know, when you would talk to a VC back in 2007, their first question is like, what if Google does your thing? I remember

we were doing a lot of stuff, [00:42:00] uh, you know, for a, a company that I operated at the time around cloud storage, and this was like in the early days of S3 and like now, if you look at cloud storage, [00:42:09] it’s totally commodified, right?

It’s ba like basically all differentiators are wiped out and it’s just like the big guys competing on price and a few different, [00:42:18] you know, types of

services. So, you know, needless to say, everything will trend towards more commoditization over time. [00:42:27] I think what’s frightening right now for a software founder is number one, Google can usurp [00:42:36] you, or OpenAI can, you know, do the thing that you’re doing right? Uh, and you know, basically get a hundred percent. Adoption and [00:42:45] name recognition overnight. Right? And then

you’re in trouble if you’ve, for example, built these, you know, there’s a million headshot generator tools [00:42:54] that are out there right now. That was like a super cool business model when things, when this stuff first came out, like

in the early mid journey, stable diffusion days. [00:43:03] But you’ve already seen that, seen that get commoditized down to basically, you know, a rat race for better and worse, right? Um, consumers have more options and they’re [00:43:12] good, but it’s not good for those business owners. Um, so there’s the big guys competing with you. That’s problem A. Problem B is [00:43:21] that anybody who’s spent 24 working hours with Claude Code can also build a prototype of your [00:43:30] thing pretty much over a weekend as one person, right?

So you’ve got competition from the big players, but you’ve also got competition from the [00:43:39] tiny stew

yourself players, which are just, you’re kind of getting, you know. Eaten from, from both ends of that spectrum, if you will. So [00:43:48] I have stuff coming for founders in the next year that addresses that vibe coding challenge in particular.

And I think a lot of it is leaner [00:43:57] businesses and uh, businesses that are more niched as opposed to saying, Hey, I’m the, you know, LinkedIn automator for everything, [00:44:06] or I’m the calendar tool for everything. You know, niching down to an industry, which they call vertical SaaS basically is a really nice approach that I think is more [00:44:15] appropriate for the current space. The other thing is that consultants who are building bespoke [00:44:24] projects for clients repeatedly are not exposed to those same challenges because by virtue of hiring a [00:44:33] consultant, the client is essentially saying the Google Gemini built tool. Is not appropriate or sufficient for me. So [00:44:42] I’m gonna bring Andrew in to help me figure out what I need, help me tailor it to my team, help me bring those customizations in, right?

So [00:44:51] the way we look at it is somebody who’s gonna pay $20 a month for a tool and be happy with it. They’re not gonna hire the consultant for five or

[00:45:00] $10,000, but there’s a very large market of clients who are unhappy with the $20 offering and [00:45:09] need help figuring out the next level up and the additional layers of customization and personalization, and you know, tailoring it to their exact needs. [00:45:18] That’s where that market is. So we discourage people from trying to compete with the SaaS tools because they are, by their very nature, [00:45:27] cheap and good enough alternatives. But there’s a significant group of clients who want more, and that’s where the consultants come in with their

more [00:45:36] custom work and their strategy.

Andrew Warner: Okay. Did I see in one of your past newsletters that you have a thousand students who’ve gone through the program

Rob Howard: [00:45:45] Yes, in our consulting program we have a little bit over 1000 students who have, uh, joined us since July of last year of 2024. So a [00:45:54] little over a year. Uh, we also have a previous program called the Incubator, which is actually gonna be rereleased next year. Uh, we have another 700 or so [00:46:03] students from various other programs that we’ve done in the past.

So our, uh, private student community has about 1700 people in it who have joined one of our [00:46:12] premium programs along the way.

Andrew Warner: in 2000 people in the newsletter that I just mentioned? How are people finding you? Like your LinkedIn profile. I, I’m [00:46:21] surprised to to hear you say that you hired someone to do it. It is so sparse. I mean, I think the top image on top is something that you kind of got from some, I don’t [00:46:30] know where from someone who wants you to promote their thing.

’cause it’s got their hashtag I guess in it. And even when I was trying to understand your backstory, none of the companies [00:46:39] in your experience section have any information. So if it’s not coming in from LinkedIn posts and I, I know you’ve done other posts, where are, where are these 200,000 people finding you?[00:46:48]

Rob Howard: We really don’t do a lot of social. We exist on LinkedIn. Um, but that’s really not my primary, um, you know, source. Uh, we do a lot [00:46:57] of partnerships with AI newsletters and organizations that teach or share news about ai. [00:47:06] Um, we in the past have acquired newsletters and acquired, um, small software companies that had, you know, email lists [00:47:15] associated with them, which have been, you know, really great opportunities for growth for

us.

Um, and what we have now is, uh, about 200,000. Email [00:47:24] subscribers. And of those, you know, we have the, the 2000 students in our more premium programs, but those 200,000 free email subscribers get, you know, [00:47:33] weekly news and analysis from us. And also that’s the only way to find out about when our programs open for enrollment.

So, uh, that [00:47:42] would be the, the path in. And also something that just gives you fun and value and, uh, you know, we try to make it different. We try to be, uh, a little bit edgier [00:47:51] and take stronger opinions than just sort of like straight news, uh, you know, type of like top five article stuff. So, um, we find that that is [00:48:00] fun for us and valuable for people, and of course helps us find people who are really engaged and want to do more and, and build businesses.

Andrew Warner: All right. You know what? I should have started with [00:48:09] this. Let’s close with this. Can you gimme an example of someone who went through your program who wasn’t techie at all, what you taught them, and then what they were able [00:48:18] to do and frankly even make financially from having gone from no AI to ai?

Rob Howard: Great question. I have the perfect person. Uh, he’s actually in [00:48:27] our directory. Uh, so one of the things that we’ve list, we’ve done in the last, uh, month is, uh, launched a public directory of [00:48:36] certified graduates of our program. So if you want to go hire a consultant, you can look at that list. They all have their profile there.

It’s kind of like a super LinkedIn, uh, you know, [00:48:45] special for us. Um, but there’s one particular student who started out in what we call our producer persona, which is one of the personas where you [00:48:54] have the most beginner tech skills. And over the course of about nine months, we helped him go through that process of upskilling that I talked about.

[00:49:03] Helped him figure out which tech stack he needs to use. Uh, he even like tried Claude and it built a Chrome extension for him and then he was [00:49:12] able to iterate on that. And of course we helped him with it along the way because we have the business team, the teaching team, but also software developers, right, who can help [00:49:21] students with like actually the nuts and bolts of everything. Um, and I will say he is a go-getter, right? He’s like the kind of person [00:49:30] who’s like, oh gosh, this is so fun. I’m gonna sit down. I’m gonna like learn this all night, basically. Um, so he did a ton of upskilling, but just going through the materials that we [00:49:39] provide to everybody in our program. Um, he worked with a few small and midsize companies and then he was one of the first people to score [00:49:48] a gig through our directory, which was with a Fortune 500. Company who flew him to New York and then is flowing, flying him out to the West coast to do paid [00:49:57] trainings. And those are in the, uh, you know, five to $15,000 range in terms of the money he’s taking in and getting paid for [00:50:06] travel, uh, and big projects, uh, pitching retainer projects for, you know, over 10,000 a year.

Now, I’d say he is [00:50:15] a star student, right? So we of course, don’t guarantee those types of results in any particular timeframe, but that’s the vision that I want people [00:50:24] to have as they’re coming in to be able to say, you can skill up, you can use the fact that you want to be a trusted [00:50:33] advisor to these companies, right? Learn the stuff you need to learn. Learn the business philosophy. Build human connection, right? It’s [00:50:42] not about, you know, just clicking the button and running the process repeatedly, and then money starts spitting out, right? Like it is a real thing that you have to do and build. [00:50:51] And there is. Real work associated with it. But we believe that it is fun work, it is well-paying work, and it

is a really

great alternative to a lot of the [00:51:00] stuff that’s out there. Yeah,

Andrew Warner: I’m sorry, but what the, the vision for him was that he’s now getting flown out to one Fortune 500 company to do trainings for [00:51:09] $15,000, roughly a year. What else has he done?

Rob Howard: So he has many clients. That’s one example,

Andrew Warner: So so he’s four clients [00:51:18] who are paying him

Rob Howard: Yes,

Andrew Warner: build AI more? How many would you say?

Rob Howard: Probably between five and 10 right now. And I

would say

[00:51:27] the snowball is rolling down the hill. Okay. And then what would you say that they pay on average? Um, I’d say his typical project is [00:51:36] in the three to $10,000 range for a

fixed project fee. Um, so, you know, he’s starting to score enough that this is becoming[00:51:45]

a real business for him. Uh, we have other students who are more on the engineer side who are selling. Like $80,000 engineering projects, but I [00:51:54] hesitate to use them as an example because they had a lot of preexisting tech skills coming in, right? So they don’t fit that archetype of somebody who’s relatively new [00:52:03] to tech coming

into this space. Um, so, you know, the vision that I have for somebody who is an AI enthusiast is over [00:52:12] the course of, you know, six months to 18 months, we want to help you build a six figure business in terms of the amount of revenue that you’re bringing in. [00:52:21] Basically a one person business or maybe a small number of partners. And a lot of that revenue is gonna come from things like the training to strategy [00:52:30] to custom build roadmap that we talked about. So it’s not a foolproof system as no business system is, right? [00:52:39] Like you have to do the work. People will have different luck finding clients. You know, we don’t. Try to make it seem like it’s automatic in any way. However, [00:52:48] uh, it is a real thing that is happening to dozens and dozens of people in our program. Um, so we think [00:52:57] that it is not just a viable path, but also a path that is enjoyable and allows people to build businesses that are fun and, uh, you know, work for [00:53:06] them. Um, and it’s very different than I think, the Silicon Valley path, right?

Like it’s much more, uh, you know, oriented towards [00:53:15] a really great, thriving small business, right? You’re not necessarily gonna go get venture capital or, you know, a hundred x these businesses, but they are, uh, [00:53:24] you know, enjoyable and profitable and really good for folks who want to kind of get into that space.

Andrew Warner: I can totally see that and I see the [00:53:33] value now of it, and I can understand where this is more approachable for people and I see the longer term solution, uh, and the longer term viability of [00:53:42] this. Um, alright. I’m with you. I’m curious to see if Jesse ends up hiring. I is. Would he hire you or

is he gonna hire one of your graduates?

Rob Howard: no, I, I [00:53:51] sent him a list of our graduates that I Oh, I see. I see it here. Actually. You sent him specific people that he could work

yeah, so, you know, I, [00:54:00] when people email me personally, I try to curate it for them a little bit,

and then if you want to just go browse the list. Innovating with ai.com, there’s a find a consultant button on

there, and [00:54:09] that’s where you can join our, our free newsletter too. Um, yeah, and we’re really pumped for it. We’ve, uh, you know, we’ve got a pretty big audience, right? We’ve got the list of [00:54:18] 200,000 email subscribers. We promote the directory to that when people get, you know, certified as, as graduates in there. And we’re seeing a lot of people already coming [00:54:27] in and asking students, you know, there’s a little form you could fill out to submit your project to a student.

Uh, and it’s working. So, you know, we know the demand is there and we know [00:54:36] that people are really enjoying it and also making money off of it. So, you know, I, I, I think that’s a pretty big win and a fun combination. You know, it’s, uh, [00:54:45] it’s very, and it’s very different than, you know, what you kind of see if you scroll through the social media of like, here’s the 27 ideas you need to learn, or you’re gonna be [00:54:54] behind.

And it’s just like, we really want to help people turn AI into something that is accessible. Learnable, uh, able [00:55:03] to be applied to their own lives. Um, and, uh, not scary, you know? And I think what a lot of our students discover is they’re like, wow, this isn’t as scary as I thought I was gonna be. Like, [00:55:12] I kind of watched a bunch of YouTube and I thought that I would never be able to compete. And they’re like, but I can and I can learn this stuff, um, and I can get clients and they [00:55:21] will pay me. And they’re pleasantly surprised. Right. You know, and they echo a lot of things that you said during our chat today. Um, so there’s a lot of that pleasantly [00:55:30] surprised type of reaction. Uh, and I think it is, uh, fun and it is, um, something that prepares folks for the future, which is [00:55:39] kind of our, you know, underlying goal with the business in

Andrew Warner: right. All right. The website is innovating with ai. Um, and then I guess I [00:55:48] should also tell people that if they want to hire y